Where the kids are: The shocking reality of online chat rooms - Hoaxtead - 9/11/2018
Posted by E Coyote on https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/where-the-kids-are-the-shocking-reality-of-online-chat-rooms/ - 9/11/2018
In yesterday’s discussion about the extraordinary number of convicted paedophiles who seem to be friends with, or promoted by, people who purport to be “children’s rights activists” and “paedophile exposers”, one of our commenters described the shocking reality of the online chats where paedophiles prey on teens and pre-teens.
Posing as a young user, Satanic Views began to explore the chat rooms with the goal of developing an AI (artificial intelligence) tool which could help counter the grooming process. To develop such a tool, he says, it’s first necessary to understand the mind and actions of the paedophiles who frequent these chats.
While we know that SV’s motives are pure, and his goal is observation-only, we would like to caution readers that this is not an activity we would recommend for anybody. Participation in this sort of activity brings many risks, and should really only be attempted by police who are equipped to deal with such situations.
"Satan Hunters know f*ck all about paedophiles, how they operate and the impact they have on children. If the Satan Hunters were on the ball about the destruction paedophiles inflict upon children and society, they would not be so loving and supportive of those child abusers.
The challenge of society is that it is not public relations friendly to invest charity and tax payer money into researching and helping paedophiles overcome their mental condition. However, this is important to do this, because the problem and numbers are getting worse, with the police and other experts overrun.
For personal and business reasons I want to learn more about the paedophiles, their process of grooming in chat rooms, the impact they have on their victims, what the police and paedophile hunters are doing, and what the children feel, experience, think and act with regards to these paedophiles. I need this insight to be able speak about this, and to create some AI to counter the grooming process. I have never been on a chat room before, but for a few weeks I have been watching and interacting on a number of chat rooms. It’s been very educational, especially learning about how I am reacting and feeling about things.
There is a number of things that the experts have not picked up upon or are very wrong. In one chat room I am aware of a pattern never reported before that certain types of girl in the 12–15 age group will actively challenge paedophiles, but seem to end in a close emotional interaction with a few.
- That too many teens are not checking who they are friending when it is obvious it is a paedophile.
- That boys, and rumoured some girls, have adopted the process of paedophiles to predate on fellow children.
- That the harassment of children and women in chat rooms is very intense, especially by predatory males, with probably ten attempts on a female for every one attempt on a boy.
- That the paedophile hunters and police are insulting if they think that most teens write like them in chats with retarded text speak. The younger teens write very well.
- And groomers don’t spend weeks and months grooming on the internet; most move towards the subject of sex very quickly.
The experts with an AI who think that when someone discloses something personal, it’s a red flag that they are a paedophile, clearly have no clue, since I have seen lots of situations of people disclosing things for attention seeking, and teens are quite open in what they share.
It is certain that in some of the chat rooms I am on there are dozens of police and paedophile hunters on trying to catch groomers. The police I believe just sit there waiting for people to contact them, whilst the hunters are more interactive. They mostly have a stock photo of a kid as their avatar, some retarded bio which makes them look like a kid speaking, and a name such as katie13.
I have interacted with a lot of these, and they are seriously hard going to get into conversation, you kind of know they are fake because the conversation dies: they are one word answers like yes, lol and cool; they totally ignore me after looking at my bio; the conversation dies since they are not talkative or participating much. These people could be a bit more interactive in my opinion, and stop treating teens like text retards.
For the purposes of the paedophiles I play an insight role as a young teen male, my avatar is really me, and my story is roughly as it was at that age. I am as authentic as possible, and I keep away from the subject of sex, but this becomes harder when a groomer moves in on me.
I am ambivalent about what I am seeing of the teens: they appear streetwise; they do talk about sex in main chat; they are open; impulsive; play dangerous roles such as play being a paedophile asking for nudes in order to expose one; they are cruel, for instance in one case suggesting a moderator got their role by sleeping with the admin.
I take people “as is” when I interact with them, so if they say they are 13, I treat them as such in all the interactions. If a person says they are self-harming, taking drugs, or feeling suicidal, I will say to them not to do that, and seek help. I will warn noobs to be careful, and I will intervene if I think someone is looking at risk. There is only so much I can say and do within my role.
Of the paedophiles: On a regular basis I was asked straight out if I had sisters, their ages, nothing about me. I would ask why, and they ignored my question demanding answers. Although I said I had sisters, which I do, I refused to give any further information.
In my interactions I am nice, polite and approachable, probably too trusting and open to conversation. Yesterday a random person offered me 500 ($£?) to go onto snapchat or omegle and do what they said. I asked what they wanted, and they were not sure, but wanted me in my underwear. Then they wanted me to send pictures or video of my penis. I refused.
I think I am being stalked by one person through a number of accounts, I am not sure. One individual based in Kent did not speak sexually to me, but it felt like grooming, in that they wanted to meet me and I show them my karate moves. Probably the same person wanted to wrestle with me to test the strength of my legs.
People who start a conversation with ASL I know to be adults and wanting sex, they get ignored, and I hate that word. One individual asked if I was gay, when I said I was straight, threatened to kill themselves, some sort of emotional blackmail going on to force me to become gay and in a relationship I think.
Some people open the conversation with “cutie” or “cute” which is a red flag of grooming. Some issue compliments to me, some are really nice and friendly, some want to help me with my homework or interests. Some are bullying, in effect ordering me to interact with them and share snapchat contact. Some coming in on the emotional level, I have to do a mental reset to get them out of my head.
Many want me to come off the chat room to interact instead by video, kik, instagram, e-mail, phone, omegle and other ways. As in real life I am uncomfortable about talking about my body or that of another’s body, so when people do talk to me sexually, my discomfort reaches a point really fast that I will say I don’t like talking about the stuff, or I move to bring the chat to a close, or I run, or I ignore. The groomer from Kent I could have ended in their life being ruined, but it is not in my nature to be the cause of the ruin of the lives of others unlike the hunters, I don’t like that on my mind.
I am saddened that the paedophiles are unable to see children as living human beings, but instead as sex objects, and that they think the innocence of a child, such as their openness and trust, is a mating signal that they want the paedophile to have sex with them.
I am confused why males think that putting their penis on display on their avatar is appealing to women and children to interact with them. I am distraught that one chat room is overrun with paedophiles, saying and doing many awful things, like a sweet shop for paedophiles, where the sweets are the children, a place where moderators are children who do not have necessary powers to do anything about it, and the children have been in effect been thrown to the wolves.
This is why an AI is needed for such sites."
In a follow-up comment, SV notes:
"The situation is far worse than I have written for one particular site dedicated to kids. To give some examples, the minimum age is 13+ and I know there are 11 and 12 year-olds running around on the site, as I have spoken with them.
All accounts that are registered have an avatar, which everyone can see when they are active. When I check on the accounts of who is speaking with me or sends me a friend request, all their friends’ avatars can be seen, and these avatar images contain naked people, lots of erect penises, some people having sex, and some very disturbing illegal content of the top level.
The posts being made on the main chat which runs to about 50% of the posts include topics including: spanking; foot fetish; people with an obsession for diapers; invites to rape brothers and sisters; trading images via drop box and mega.
The admin who has the power to ban accounts has according to the moderators not been seen for months, and the three moderators are children, the admin was also a teen. There has been no efforts to appoint a new admin. The moderators don’t really know what to do, nor is people behind the site talking to them, they are unable to deal with the situation, nor do they have the powers to take action other than mute accounts for half an hour.
There is at least a dozen police from all over the world on that site at any time, and they should know what is going on, and they do nothing. Thousands of children use that site every week, and they see all this, and they are all being approached by the paedophiles.
If people want to see the site I have been talking about they can message me on Twitter, I will give you the address. You can join the chat room as a guest without an e-mail and see what I mean. The media, public and parents really don’t have a clue just how bad this can be on chat rooms, especially those with moderation problems.
We strongly agree with commenters YdychyncachuTracey and Lucca that this information most definitely belongs in the hands of the police. In particular, the chat room described above, and the “groomer from Kent” sound like crimes waiting to happen. CEOP ought to be informed of these situations.
Once again, we would caution readers that what SV has done should not be attempted by others. Should you find any evidence of online grooming or other forms of child exploitation, please contact CEOP via this link.
Understanding paedophiles
More generally, we agree that hand in hand with a child/teen safeguarding approach, it’s important to understand the mind of the paedophile, in order to intervene as early as possible and prevent them from causing harm in the first place.
This is a massive task, and not something which can be achieved by one person, or even a small group of people. It requires not only a robust knowledge base, but the political and social will to focus on the “pre-offender” side of the problem with a multi-pronged approach.
This could involve such things as early intervention in the form of sexual education, access to confidential mental health services, support in the community to ensure that paedophiles remain non-offenders, and better education for police and the courts to enable them to intervene effectively when paedophiles do offend.
As a society, one of our first imperatives is to protect our children, the most vulnerable amongst us. If we’re to do that effectively, we need to understand the nature of this threat, and stop it before it starts.
REACTION FROM HOAXTEAD READERS
Karen Irving, "It’s fine, I completely understand. It’s an uncomfortable topic."
I don’t know about anyone else, I don’t feel happy even discussing this subject. Anything unlawful should be passed to CEOP as Tracey advised & be done with it.
Your intentions ate good SV but I would urge you to work WITH the police ie be paid or work in official vetted volunteer capacity if you can develop AI. Much safer for you. You don’t want the nightmare of being accused of something.
What James has done is extremely unwise and his detailed report of what he discovered should not have been posted here but reported to the police.
James’s actions have a lot of similarities with those of some paedophile hunters. Predators may be identified but if sensitive material is posted online then it could possibly risk police investigations and / or result in predators evading justice.
The “hunters” make all kinds of accusations against this couple calling them “nonces” and “paedos”, act in an aggressive manner, cause a huge drama in a busy public place and then post the video online. When the police eventually turn up they see what appears to be 2 vulnerable people being harassed by an angry mob and effectively rescue them. I don’t see what else they could have done under the circumstances.
I can imagine that a good defence lawyer would use this video as evidence of entrapment and claim that, with the video going public it would deny the alleged perpetrators a fair trial.
This is so depressing as, if the couple in the video have done what the “hunters” claim they have done, they are extremely dangerous and present a significant risk to children. I am especially interested in the area of couples and female offenders and this is an area that is not well understood or widely reported.
One thing this site is usually very good at is demonstrating proper boundaries around sensitive issues. I think that the is not one of the blog’s best days.
One thing I would be very interested to understand though is how AI could be used in the battle against online grooming and exploitation.
I have spent years researching certain types of criminals and I would never dream of doing what James has done. I did once search adult porn sites for specific content linked to my research and by accident encountered horrifying images of child sexual abuse, I reported it immediately the Internet Watch Foundation and it put me off ever searching porn sites again. I felt extremely traumatised by the experience and had intrusive flashbacks of material I had seen for months afterwards.
Also, a word to the wise. Many of the criminal networks and cults I research exploit their followers in the sex industry including in video chats and pornography websites. These networks own multiple porn websites.
What many people do not understand is that if they visit a porn website, even one that does not claim to have illegal material in it and demonstrates compliance with various regulations re the age of “performers” etc. they may be compromising their online safety and privacy and leaving themselves vulnerable to sextortion.
Malware can be installed on a computer relatively easily and anyone masturbating to porn could find themselves one day messaged with a link to a video of them masturbating, usually accompanied with threats, blackmail and extortion. The cult owned websites I know of have been the subject of complaints on consumer / scam alert websites for unauthorised payments. If you can imagine websites where vulnerable adults are pimped out and trafficked and where money is stolen from subscribers’ credit cards I think it is to be expected that these site will also be involved in data harvesting, the acquisition of compromat, sextortion and blackmail.
Just another point, but as anyone who has studied psychology in any depth will understand, a person’s sexual preferences and choices, as demonstrated in their online porn consumption, can provide insights into that person’s unconscious motivations and desires. This is valuable information for criminals.
Just as supermarkets use loyalty cards to develop profiles of consumers, websites collect data to be used to target people with advertisements for products and services. Do not imagine for one moment that porn websites do not do this also. Data harvesting is big business and porn in one way that extremely personal data can be harvested.
I recently watched the excellent film Ex-Machina in which the issue of AI is central. A young man is recruited by an AI entrepreneur to test a humanoid robot that was created to resemble the young man’s porn consumption profile.
While we have less to fear from humanoid robots in the immediate future posters and allies here should be wary of honey traps, male and female, who perfectly fit their physical, emotional and intellectual ideals. When people who seem to be “the one” appear from nowhere we should be alert.
I think that the police are struggling against an ocean of predators, blackmailers and criminals who monetise the pain and misery of children and also of naive adults. One of the most horrifying aspects of this is the mental health problems and suicides that result from sextortion and online blackmail.
We are facing an epidemic of suicides of young men in the UK and I strongly suspect that one of the reasons is online sextortion, bullying and blackmail.
There is so much work to do in this respect and any creative thinking should be welcomed and encouraged but not if it involves
James, if you think that AI can help the police then I would encourage you to write a proposal outlining your ideas. Share them here if you want to, just don’t even think about subjecting yourself to further illegal and traumatising material.
In my profession we’re advised not to do anything that could potentially be misinterpreted, such as being alone with pupils after school, giving them lifts, befriending them on social media and so on. And I would think that engaging with kids in chat rooms would come under that category, even if one’s motives are completely honourable.
Even more so as many of the possible related charges are strict liability offences. The police and CPS don’t have to prove mens rea. All an honourable intention becomes is a plea for mitigation in sentencing.
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